Marcus Norris, South Side Symphony, and being an entrepreneur

Dr. Marcus Norris is a composer and conductor, who has orchestrate several songs for Beyoncé's 2023 Dubai return to live performance and served as Music Director for Tina Knowles-Lawson's 2022 Wearable Art Gala. Marcus founded South Side Symphony in 2020, which he describes as "like if Quincy Jones grew up on 90s R&B and Rap." 

I had the privelege to conduct Marcus' opera Forsyth County is Flooding (with the Joy of Lake Lanier) after he won the 96 Hour Opera Project organized by the Atlanta Opera. It's a great conversation in which we spoke about Marcus' musical journey, new project with South Side Symphony, and entrepreneurship.

Learn more about Marcus and his music, visit www.MarcusNorris.com and www.SouthSideSymphony.org or @MarcusNorris on IG.

Watch the world premiere of Marcus' opera Forsyth County is Flooding on Atlanta Opera Streaming Site with a free account, production conducted by Chaowen Ting.

All About Chaowen Ting 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Hello, hello. Welcome back to the Conductors Podcast. In today's episode, I'll be speaking with Dr. Marcus Norris, whom I had a privilege to work with in 2022, thanks to the Atlanta Opera's 96-hour competition. The 96-hour project is now a part of the NAL Festival, which is a competition for a pair of the opera librettist and a composer to get together and create a 10-minute mini opera. The winning pair of the competition will also wing a commission by the Atlantic Opera to work on expanding this idea, this 10-minute idea, into a full one-act opera of an hour. Marcus and Adama, his girlfriend back then, and now they are newly red over the first year competitions winners. And because of this winning commission, the Atlanta Opera organized two opera workshops for them during the period of writing this new opera. And I was brought into this project and served as the assistant conductor for both of the workshops and conducted the world premiere of the final production. Marcus is a conductor, a composer, a ranger himself, and also founder of the South Side Symphony. His idea of creating this new symphony orchestra was what if orchestra didn't exist and were invented today by a young black man. He describes the sound as like if Quincy Jones grew up 90s RB and rap. This is why that this orchestra plays a lot of really cool and exciting concert. They are cross-or-learning genres, styles, and musical ideas, and they are always really exciting to attend. In this episode, which was recorded in early June, Marcus talks about the concert that was coming up called Anime Jo Gen, which will be repeated later in this year. If you're ever in a city where the anime jujin is offered, you don't want to miss that. Marcus is just a wonderful human being, someone that I admire a lot. And I hope you will enjoy this episode and get to know him a little more.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

It has, it's been too long.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Yeah, I know. So Marcus and I met from the the project uh with the Atlanta Opera, the Forsyth County. I think it was the first new opera that they commissioned. Maybe we could start from there. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that project? Whatever you want to share with us. I know it's been a journey itself from beginning to the end.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, no, I mean it was it was really cool. And I was really happy that we met and I I loved working with you and like your season. You did great. Uh yeah, so that was a really fun one. I did it with my now my now wife.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Thank you, as of uh, you know, six months ago or so. So there was the first year they announced the competition, and I just completely misunderstood the competition. You know, what is it? 96 hour opera project. So I thought, like, okay, you apply and then you go there and you write this opera in 96 hours. But that's what I thought as well. You thought, okay, okay, it wasn't just I saw the same.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

I saw the same. I thought they fly you in and then they give you something, and then you just don't sleep for 96 hours.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

What was actually supposed to happen is you were supposed to have written it already, and then you put it together in the 96 hours, which makes more sense. Um, but so I got there and I hadn't written the thing, and I had to hurry up and do it. And uh, you know, we ended up still winning, which was which was cool. And we had COVID also during the competition, so we had to just stay in our hotel rooms. We had just came from like international flights. It was during that time, it was it was a lot going on, but we ended up winning that and then uh decided to do a different story for our actual commission. And I I'm really proud of it. I I think it came out really cool. Um there's video recording for anyone watching this. You can you can access it through the Atlanta Opera's website, however they have it set up at this time. But uh, but yeah, it was it was it was really cool. Uh met a lot of cool people. We I had been wanting to do more stuff in Atlanta and you know, meet more musicians and and people working down there and music, and uh it, you know, it brought us together, so that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Yes, that's that's what fantastic. But I I was gonna ask because I always thought the winning piece was was the beginning of the opera that we premiered, but it was not. Did you end up using any of the winning parts at all?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

No, I think that maybe is how they do it now, and I think that's like the plan, but it wasn't like specifically codified that way when we did it the first time, but I think that's how it works now. And our version for the winning competition thing was like it just was its own thing, like it was uh short and funny and and had a little bit of you know heart and substance to it, but it wasn't a like trying to make that into like an hour or 90 minutes just felt kind of a little bit forced for the topic that we had and for our competition. We kind of felt like if we were to try to take this like good thing that's like funny and poignant, and like if if you take a joke and then you say the same joke over and over and over again, eventually it's not very funny, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Um But that's a lot of the American TV shows that I it is, it is, and it's like, hey, this is hey, I've heard this joke, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

And so we we we talked with them about it, and they they were uh kind enough to let us do something different, and they trusted us, which which was cool um to do something different for for the uh for the longer piece. But I think now it might be baked into the rules or uh or the flow is that it's gotta be the same thing for future people so that they can be, and that would have been fine if we would have been thinking about it that way when we started. But um, but yeah, we were able to to make something cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

I don't know about rules. I know I know the ones that I've been working on, they were they were similar stories, but it's not necessarily the same musical ideas.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Like the one that's that's where premiering again, um not again, but premiering this weekend. Um, they've been debating their felt the winning piece might have been the middle of the opera or the end of the opera, and then I heard it was the concept, but not the actual materials that's being used. So Gotcha. Yeah, but I think like as you say, like write trying to write something that's 10-15 minutes to win a competition is totally different from writing like an an one act thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Um have you been writing more operas since or I I want to write more opera and you know, and Dama and I are talking, we were actually talking this morning about like a musical, maybe. Um, you know, I I love it. It's just one of those things where it's like I don't know, you you need a little bit more like I can put on a concert by myself, like or like I can produce a concert, but like trying to self-produce an opera, it's like you kind of need the you need the right backing, and you know what I mean. Um, but I'm hopeful and I uh you know I look forward to doing it again.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

You never know. You never know. You have good stories always, and good story told and that persists, you know, and I I I'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

I I am starting to think about what is gonna be my winter project when I'm just like locked up for the holidays in my house or whatever in the snow. It's like uh maybe it starts as like a song cycle or or something like that that has a narrative to it and see where it goes. And because I can stage a workshop and stuff like that, but anyway, I got ideas brewing.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Yes, I trust you, you can write a song cycle in like two nights.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

I'm getting too old now, though. Like I'm slowing down, but still, still.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

I was still talking about how you just wrote two songs overnight and orchestrated a whole thing, and it was awesome to play.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

So yeah, thinking about that yesterday, like uh me and Adama were talking about some of this stuff, and I was just like, I remember being it was about the workshops because I remember telling her I was like, I like I value those, and about how you can have this perfect idea, but then you put it in front of somebody, and you immediately realize, oh, it needs this or that, and how useful that process is. So I was saying, like, if we if we do this musical or whatever, it's like we need we can do these workshops ourselves. But I I was just thinking about that because I remember we did like one of the first couple workshops, and I got there, and like we ran through it, and I was like, it needs a hit at the end, it needs just it needs a big song, and then they were like, Oh, yeah, so you'll go and you'll work on that. And I just came back with it the next day. Just like, nope, here it is.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

You know what?

SPEAKER_03 9:53

So, with since what happened with you now, we're feeling in the schedule that there is one day for the composer to write new things, so you don't have to do it overnight, but no one had taken advantage of that since they're like no, that's too much. I miss Marcus.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Maybe that means they planned better on the front end, you know.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

Like everyone works differently. But tell us about the the concert. You have a concert this weekend and next weekend that's with your orchestra, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Tell us about it. Next week is the big one. It's making our performing arts center debut at the Seggerstrom concert hall down here. It's like huge, huge hall. It's beautiful. We've been playing like they have like these outdoor plazas or the small theater. We've been like collaborating with the Segurstrom Center for this would be our fifth year, I think. Um, but this is the first time we're like in the concert hall. We got like a 20-piece group. Uh, we're calling it the anime juke jam. And it's just all about like this cultural exchange between uh Japan and anime and like black American music. Like it kind of started because I, you know, I I grew up loving anime, and I just started thinking about it with my adult brain. Like, why is all of this like jazz and hip hop and like soul and RB? Like, it's amazing, it's so cool. I was just curious about the why, and it's so good. And then I just I just did deep dive into the history and just found amazing stories. I commissioned new animation. Um, it's like part concert, part like documentary video essays with like animation, like talking about like the stories behind some of these exchanges that people aren't gonna know yet. I just went on this deep dive and had a lot of fun with it. Um, all of that, plus the 20-piece soul fusion orchestra and funk and horns and saxophones and drums. I'm also doing, I brought on um, I found somebody who plays shameson and but like is also willing to play jazz. So we're gonna put like shamisen and soul and hip-hop, and I it's gonna be crazy. Um, and people are like really excited about it in a way that like is is energizing me. Um, so yeah, that's the big one. That's gonna be next weekend. Um and then this weekend we're gonna take a smaller group. Uh so the World Cup is I live in Inglewood, and like the World Cup is coming here, and the city of Inglewood has decided to do something called the Wood Cup. So it's like that earlier that day, before people go to that, they can come to like this big street block party where they block off a whole bunch of streets and food and vendors and everything. I'm gonna bring like a group of like maybe seven, eight people and uh and musicians, and we're gonna play some fun block party stuff. I love stuff like that because like when I was a kid, those are like my first type of performances. I had this mentor, his name was Benny Poole, and he was like famous in the boogie-woogie style jazz and all these things, like old school stuff. And I was doing like rap and and and all that type of stuff at that hip-hop. But he would just take us to these block parties, and then he would just be like, he would just set up like a microphone in front of people who are just like, you know, at the tables playing spades and dominoes and everything and just hanging out, and he would just set us up the microphone, the speakers, and then we'd be like, Okay, now make them move. And you'd be like, What? Like, yep, no, this is it, this is all you get, now do it. And we were terrible at it, but it's like it's such a good, a good test and kind of the litmus test for me now. Anyway, so I always love those those style of performances, and any opportunity I get to do stuff like that is always fun. Um, but yeah, so it's a lot of a lot of juggling, but all all fun stuff.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

I know whenever you wherever you are, it's go always going to be a lot of fun. That I can promise. But I know I I've always wondered because it I thought you started as you know, like you say, a rap and RB as songwriter, but it seems for some people that there's a bridge or a gap between like an orchestra or like an orchestra, what people imagine that is. But how did you can make the dots connected?

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Like what happened that you're like, oh, I want an orchestra to do this, not a jazz band, not to get banned.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah, I mean, for me, genre has always felt like an artificial construct, like like they don't always feel so separate to me. Um, I like different styles of music for different reasons and different elements of it. But I think uh for me, when I was in college, I was going for my associate's degree at a community college uh in Michigan around Detroit um for music recording technology. But while I was there, they had me take like some basic music theory and and also some music history, and that's when I started to get interest. I was like, wow, this guy, this guy Bach is going crazy. You know, I've never never heard somebody uh write music or uh approach the way he approaches it, like with the counterpoint, and then you go to Beethoven and Mozart, and then Ravel and Debusy, and you know, I like good music, but I never stopped liking the stuff that I grew up on, and so just like okay, it just all gets added to my language, and now I just always try to write from my language, which was made up of you know, you're a synthesis of all the music that you listen to. Um, but yeah, I've always felt that genre, while I do understand the differences in styles and stuff, I always felt like it's not as rigid as a lot of times people think it is.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

So, how many instruments you play?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

I play piano and like not great.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Same here.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

I write at piano. Like when I was in undergrad, I was you know playing piano as part of my scholarship, but like I was also I was going to school for composing at that time, like my bachelor's, and I was working really, really hard at piano to be just okay.

unknown 16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

And I was good with it. Like, I'm like, you're you're cutting it, you're solid, you're okay. But it's like I was looking at people who I now will like, you know, to play on my stuff. And I'm like, when that person was 15 years old, they were better than I will ever be. But I was like, I'm pretty good at this composing, and oh, you know, I was like, I I'm actually pretty good at this. So I just had like a a realistic, pragmatic moment of like, you know, you're working really hard to be okay at this, but you're pretty good at this other thing. I bet if you really focused on this, you could be, you know, the man at that. And and so I just, you know, I had to I had to go with my strengths.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

But I have a question because I am still amazed at how well you write for different instruments. When we worked together, you had this bigger, small ensemble that we had. We had string, we had brass, we had woodwinds, we had piano. But everything you wrote was really natural and fit that instrument. From where did you that learn that skill? From from your own group, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Tons and tons of score study, and but more, but also just like I I approach orchestration like what do I like about this instrument or a singer or whatever? What do I like about it? And then how do I give them the opportunity to showcase that? Like, is how I think about it. You know, obviously, you know, I have a PhD in composition, so I've been around a ton of composer students in my life, and it's like what I see a lot of times beginners do is like I have this idea, I'm putting it on this instrument, and I don't care how they feel about it. And it's like, and it's like I that, you know, that might not be the most conducive to getting a good sound, you know? And rather than than purely that, I try to approach it from like again, like what do these instruments do? What is idiomatic to them? What's the version of my idea where I can give them the best opportunities to show that? And it doesn't mean I don't take risks or like I never get anything, you know, I never push them a little too far or get it wrong. But when I do, I'm like, it's calculated, like it's for a specific reason. Um, you know, I want the instrument to sound strained, so I'm making it go high, or whatever, whatever it is, you know what I mean? It's it's like uh I think that's that's the main thing. It's like just starting from a place of like loving, loving those instruments, and like just want to give that musician. And then also I always try to give every musician like an opportunity to be like I think about them as people, and I'm always like, hey, I want them always to have like a part where it's like, hey, my part's coming up in that second movie. Hey, make sure you listen. Like if their family is in the crowd, you know. Yeah, I always try to give them that.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

I can see that people starting to write for instruments. Sometimes they rely too much on the MIDI playback. So, oh, that sounds good. But like I like that song. I think that's playable, or they play piano, so they they don't understand translating something from the piano to a different instrument, it's totally different. The fingering, the the poem way different. Yeah, a lot of people forget about those, and I was like, okay, this this sounds very strange. Um, when it's yeah, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

MIDI is like it tricks so many people, and not even just beginners. Like, MIDI tricks a lot of people. Um, it's a very useful tool. Like, I don't want to say it has nothing to do with what a real orchestra is, but it has little to do. Um but yeah, the MIDI is like it's a it's a double-edged sword. It's like it's so useful, um, especially if you're collaborating with people and you need to give them a sense of what you got going on, but but yeah, it like it will lie to you so much.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Yes. Oh my god. I know we can talk like for days about that. For sure. Um, but I felt that's um I I think I watched some of the the reels that you recorded for social media that you're talking about, like letting your musicians shy. And I certainly felt that. And I'm pretty sure you do that with your orchestra as well. So for the orchestra and for your ensemble, do you write most of the pieces that they are performing? I know you commission animators and you bring in people in. How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah, so I think about us like in the lineage of like a Duke Ellington and his orchestra, um, or Cab Callaway and his orchestra, Quincy and his. So yeah, I'm writing a lot of the music, but like we do perform a lot of like other people's tunes, but I usually do the orchestrations for them as well. Um, and that's another thing that helps me of just like I get a lot of reps in. You know what I mean? So it's like I I write stuff. Ah, that didn't quite work. In the same way, that's I think that helps with like um that kind of sets the tone for the process of like how you're talking about I was still working on the thing as we're workshopping it because I feel like that ability to iterate quickly. And that's how Duke Ellington got so good. That's how Bach got so good. He was like writing music. Bach was writing for church every week, Duke was writing for the club every week, and so he would show up and be like, oh, this this worked. That part didn't. Let's oh, people loved it when we did this and that. So let's let's do that in the next piece. Um, but yeah, that's usually on the music, uh for the most part. I think I'm like orchestrating and and writing most of it. Um I love it.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Have you ever counted like an on average how many places are you working together on at the same time, or like every night's how many you can get?

SPEAKER_00 22:59

It's too many. Like I I literally don't know. Like it's gotta be hundreds at this point. Um uh like over the years. It's so much music. I I'm getting smarter about it now because I'm just getting older and like I can't do all nighters anymore. But I I was thinking about that recently because like the the one we got coming up, the anime juke jam, is the first one where I'm like, okay, I want to make like a production. Like this is like the way uh like a musical or an opera is where it's like, okay, well, let's pull up that boom. We can put the anime juke jam. Okay, they want us to do it in Atlanta. Here's the anime juke jam, here's all the music. Because when I first started Southside Symphony, it was like, okay, cool, we're gonna do an hour concert. Write an hour of music. I'm not I'm like laughing about it, but that's literally what it was. Like the next concert we would do would just be like, here's another hour of music. And you can do that when you're like 20 something, but now when I have like other gigs and commissions and and I just I don't have that much energy anymore, um, I gotta get smarter. So it's like it's always there all there is always new music on our bigger concerts, like uh for this anime juke jam one, it's about like we did a earlier um version of the concert two years ago, like a prototype that this is an expanded version of, and maybe like half of the music is from that version and half of it is new. Um but yeah, I I I literally don't know how much music is but I actually I actually try not to think about it. Like, and and there's no like not philosophical reason. I just like I don't know, it's like if uh if you ever seen like a kid fall and like they don't cry until you react as if they should be hurt. And I don't know. As an analogy, that's how I think about it. It's like if I don't measure how much because if I stop and think about how much it is, then I'll probably be like, I'll probably start getting nervous and be like, there's no way you can do all that or this and this. So I try to just like I try to just like wake up and like, all right, we're working. I'm in a busy season right now, and it's it's a lot of that. It's just like, hey, don't I can sit here and stress about how much I need to get done, or I could just start chipping away.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Love that, love the energy. But you are wearing so many hats at the same time as they say no, um, no, it's is it more like a producer? Because before maybe you were just thinking, I know we all start this way. I want us to conduct something, I want someone to play my music. I just got a group, and then as it grows, there's the producing, there's personnel management, there is this librarian part, there's this promotion part, there's this fundraising part, there's this site, contracting, negotiating. There are so many things. Um, what you love about the most?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Which part do I love the most?

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Oh, the music by far. The performance. Like I'm a performer. Um, the people in the room is is the fun part. I love the musicians and the community as well. That means a lot. Um, but yeah, I I love the performing and the actual music. How I manage all of those things is I think of them as three different jobs, and that really helps me in like three different Marcuses. In in the future, hopefully, like I have enough funds and infrastructure where like I can just do that music side, and I can hire people to be the other two Marcuses. But but like um, I I read this book some years back that's really helpful. I think I want to revisit again, but uh it's called the E Myth Revisited. It's basically the entrepreneurial myth. Basically, it's like there are three jobs for every like founder. Um, there is a technician, that's the person that actually does the thing, whatever the thing is. In my case, music, you know, our case music. So it's like the tech. I'm I think at my in my heart, I'm the technician. I'm the guy that just I just like doing the thing. I would do the thing if I wasn't paid to do the thing. And then there is the manager, and that's the person who like makes sure everybody gets their music on time and make sure everybody's paid on time and got their W9s in and is working with the accountant, and that's all like that's all like emailing and everybody knows where to park and just all of those things that you don't think about before you get into this gig. That's the manager, and then there's the entrepreneur, and that's the person who is like trying to see opportunities before they're opportunities and thinking ahead and like getting creative and has all these big ideas. So it helps me to kind of like split them into like which version do I need to be today? And it's like, okay, today I need to be the guy that is like thinking about all this stuff, but then like, all right, well, yesterday, entrepreneur put us in this situation where we got these two constructs up. So today I need to be tech. I'm not answering no email technician, I'm not answering any emails, I'm just writing the notes because we got to get them parts in time, and you know what I mean. So it's I don't know, it's not like a tangible thing or like an app or a hack, but for whatever reason, like splitting it up, thinking about it in my head as three jobs, even if I have the same amount of work, really is helpful for me.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Yeah, a lot of people start like a passion project, but a lot of people stop because after a project or two, there are just so many things that drinks their energies, or they lose the excitement and passion, but you've been doing it for so long, and each project's bigger and more exciting.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

I yeah, I would definitely say if anybody is feeling like that, you should read the book The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. Uh obviously, this is not sponsored or anything. I'm just a fan of the book. It's just like um, but he talks about that exact situation, and he's the person that made me realize okay, I think in the book he talks about uh like a baker or a bakery. And he was like, he basically says he's like, yeah, it's like the entrepreneurial myth is like um, we think like, oh, you're an amazing, you're amazing at making cookies. You love to make cookies, and so you start this business, but you don't know anything about like sourcing flour or like renting out a place to do this, or the market forces affecting the baking industry. And it's not to discourage anybody from doing those, but it's just to make you aware. It does really good at making you aware of all of these things in these different jobs, and then after that goes on to talk about like how um okay, you're at the point where you do need help. How do you do that? Like what for for the person who is like scared to get help because like you're the only person that knows your system and you're the only you care so much about these details, and or maybe you've tried to get an assistant in the past and you couldn't. So um, yeah, if you're if you're one of those people, you know, like like many of us, I would highly recommend that book. It's one that I've like gifted to some of my friends who I knew were in that situation as well. And I think I'm about overdue for a reread myself.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Yeah, but that's not like something I I probably should agree to. I'm going to find it. Um, but that's just gear a little bit. I know I sort of remember you started playing music at a young age, right? You start singing or playing filming something at the keyboard.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

I was uh making beats as a kid. Yeah, I I when my uncles at my uh my grandmother's house had like this, you know, uh Fruity Loops at the time. I think they've re rebranded to FL Studio now to try to sound more professional. But yeah, I was like I started making beats when I was really young, like 13, I think.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Mm-hmm. And that's how that your music journey started. How did you decide you want to go somewhere and major in composition? You said you did it for undergrad.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah, because so I had gotten a uh my senior year, I had gotten a two-year scholarship to uh it was called the Michigan Promise, and it was like to any community college in the state. And so I wanted to go for like some type of recording or something music. So because I was all self-taught, and you know, we didn't have YouTube and we didn't have all these things that people have now. And so I wanted to get, I wanted to be able to like make my music sound better through like producing and engineering on the on that side. So I found a music recording technology. Um, and so I went for my two years there at it's called Schoolcraft College around Detroit. And uh, I think I mentioned earlier, it's like while I was there getting this degree in music recording technology, they had me take uh basic materials in music theory, they had me take music history, and so then I was gonna go to Columbia, Chicago for audio production, like continuing on my music recording technology. But I just had to be honest with myself at that last minute. I was like, I think I like this composition stuff because after I took that basic materials in music theory, I went on to take like a bunch of independent studies. I had they had a really good teacher there at the time, and I went on to take like like music theory one, two, three, four, jazz theory, all of these things as independent studies. Um and I just loved it. So then by the time it was for me to transfer at the last minute, I decided I was like, you know what? If I'm being honest with myself, I think I like I think I want to do this composition thing instead. And and so I switched at the last minute.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

That's so so you say like being honest with yourself, but that's not an easy thing to do. Not and then the other thing that I noticed about you through our time working together is that you were not just laid back, but you really trusted every single person that was in the room. Like we know the the piece that you wrote was your baby, but you just trusted us. Like you trusted me in rehearsals. We we, of course, we had questions, we came to you for clarification. Sometimes I talk to you about suggestions. I was really nervous, like really, really nervous. I think I I Googled you before we first I read like 10 different websites about you and I was like, okay, this person has a PhD in composition. He also conducts, so you probably feel like I would be coming in not knowing shit about the content. But that was not easy for a lot of the composers. Was that something that you had to learn? Or did you just naturally trust it?

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Sure. I want to give an honest answer. I think I just my philosophy is get people you can trust and then trust them. Like I think a lot of people are um, I don't know, like very controlling. I've heard Stravinsky was like that. Like I've heard stories that Stravinsky was very like if I wrote uh a double dotted eighth, it better be a double dotted eighth and not like an eighth tie to say, you know what I mean? Like it was just like really like um I don't know. I just I think like people are smart and creative, and like I don't know everything. I think I think there's a humility in there of like, hey, you know, I always tell uh when especially when I'm starting, I would tell the musicians really explicitly, like, you know, say I'm writing something for saxophone, I'm like, hey, you know more about that saxophone than I'm gonna know by the time I'm on my deathbed. You know, and so so like I would love, and if you're nice to people, you can learn from them, you know, like uh not that people don't just take gigs, but like even if it's a gig, like musicians they're doing making music because they like it and they want it to sound good and they they they want to help you win. Let them help you win. I I don't know. I uh Richard Lawson is a director, actor. I worked with him out here, and he had this saying, he's like, uh everybody's a genius until proven otherwise. And I that's how he came to his collaborations in theater and stuff. And I always thought that was nice. Just like, you know, basically it just reminds you to just like, hey, hear everyone out. If they made it in the room, they got the job, cool, hear them out. Let's they throw out this idea, well, let's let's try it. Let's see what, you know. Um, so yeah, I think I just try to, I think just approach it with like a humility of like this person knows things that I don't know, which is true. And and um it doesn't mean like like you said, like of course I had I had my vision and I have my ideas. So it's like if it if it is is not true to the idea, or if they're missing an element of the final picture of my goal, if I if I haven't communicated my final goal in a way that's clear to them yet, then I then I need to do that as well. But um, yeah, I just try to approach it from like a I it the I think the work ends up better. I I can say that much. Like because I listened to you and I listened to the musicians and you know, and and the other collaborators, I can uh say with 100% certainty that the final product ended up being a lot better than just purely, purely, I wrote it this way, play it this way, and that's it, you know? So it's a win-win-win.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Yeah, yeah. But I always felt so strongly that your love, not just for for music, but also for human beings. Like you love, it was so clear that you love people that you want us to to shy with you.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah, and you were never intimidated and always with like a curious mind to see what we had to say, what when we had ideas. That's that's something that I I so appreciate. It you don't always have that kind of a collaborator.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Yeah, I love the process.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

So I know it's a busy season, any like upcoming project that you want you can share. What are you working on? The big things, small things, yeah, fun interesting. I think everything you take on should be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Hopefully, you know. Um yeah, so we got the anime juke jam next week. Um, we're getting it filmed. I I would love to tour it. Um, so that's hopefully in the cards. Um working on a few short films. Uh, I just signed on to do the music for this animated pilot, which I'm really excited about. It's like an animated sitcom uh that would just that the Kickstarter I think ends in like two days, but it's like already like way funded and into the bonus funding thing. So it's definitely happening. It's this guy named uh he makes video essays about cartoons on YouTube, but like it has been for like a long time, uh, named Toon Riffet Tariq. Uh so I'm really excited about that. We met and and got on a Zoom and like just ended up like talking for like two hours. So I'm really excited about that. Um yeah, uh a few other like uh short films and and some other cool stuff, but uh but yeah, the anime juke jam is the one that's like I'm obsessed with right now that it's hard for me to see past, but uh it's so cool. Like I said, we got like new animations, these documentaries that I I want to try to get published uh afterwards once I can think about other things, but uh but yeah, just just just more fun for this project specifically.

SPEAKER_03 39:07

Did you write the music first and then do you have animation, or was there an animation and then you write music to it?

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Um I I think it was uh like the f the music first. Yeah, like a a little bit of both. I knew what the music was gonna be, and then it kind of went that way. Um but then okay, you got that, but let's come back and do this. So it's it's it's a it's a dialogue as I unpack it.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Of course, but then for animation, because it's it's kind of set that they can't adjust much on size, like during performance, like then timing became very important. How do you manage that?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Um, it depends. So for some of the stuff, it's not like for some of it, it doesn't need to be exact. Like, like, you know, um if I was doing a bouncing ball animation, that probably needs to be pumped, but you know, that needs to be, but some of it it's like it just some of it doesn't have to be exact. And so a lot of it's like that, where it's like like you know, if there's characters dancing and stuff like that, where it's like it can be more that works to like 10 10 tempos that can be as long as the the energy is there, or it's stuff like that mostly where um the stuff that had to be exact, we made exact. The stuff that didn't we we tried to lean to into a lot that doesn't have to be exact for this for this specifically.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

Yeah, yeah. I can't wait to see it. Once you have some what after the after the performance or the premiere, I'm sure we can have like stitch up that we can hopefully bring you back to Atlanta or to a lot of other places.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Finger crossed. All right, just to close this up, I always just ask this question is there any word of wisdom things that you want to tell people who are listening? No matter they are like, you know, starting beginning composition, slash conductor, or entrepreneur, things that you'll learn that you wish you were told earlier, or advice that had been given to you that you wish you don't have you didn't worry that much about.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Right. Um I I got two. One, I'll say start where you are is something I think people struggle with a lot. It's like uh I for example, I meet a lot of people who was like, Oh, I want my own orchestra, I want to write for orchestra. I'm like, oh, that's great. Like, have you like written any string quartets or anything? No, I don't want to do that. I want to do orchestra. It's like, well, can you can you afford that? Do you know the people? No. It's like so you gotta start where you are. Make the version, make the version that you can make. Like, for example, for the anime juke jam, it's like I have these documentaries and animation stuff. Like, if I had the money to do it the way I wanted to do it, it's like I would have like the big cameras and it would be like the Netflix style docs, and and there were a lot of things I wanted to clear to include in it, like to get licensed or whatever to include in the documentary that I just flat out can't afford to. But I'm making the version that I can now, and like hundreds and hundreds of people have already bought tickets to it, and they're gonna have a great time, and they're not gonna know, you know, they you know, they're their uh art doesn't have to be perfect to be impactful. And so I would say start where you are. Um, and then another one that I struggle with personally that I've been really thinking about lately, um, is if I could talk to my younger self, I would say spend a lot less time deliberating and a lot more time taking action. Um, a lot of times we just spend so much time like trying to decide between two options. Should I do this? Should I do that? Where should I be spending my time? And like one, like the reason we we delay is often because uh the stakes feel really high for one. Um but two, it's usually never, it's never really like even when it is high, yeah. But it's like it's like it's never one thing that's gonna like completely change your life. Not that things can't level you up or bump you up, but it's not one thing is never gonna be the game changer. And then second, the second reason we often like delay is because we don't have enough information to make an in like the most informed decision. But what I found is that like you only get that information by doing. It's like it's like unfortunately, and it sucks and it's hard, and it takes a lot of courage and bravery. But like, you know, think about things. I'm not saying to be spontaneous, but like think about things, weigh your options, but. Then, like once you've you've thought it through and you've and you've deliberated all the information you have, unfortunately, the only way to get more information is to just do the thing, which is gonna require you to make some mistakes sometimes and learn from that and then be able to learn and adjust. Um, but yeah, I if I could go back in time, I would spend a lot less time deliberating and more time just like, okay, is it this or this? I I don't really have enough information to make the best decision. I don't know which of these, I don't know which of these musicians to hire. I don't know which of these things to spend my money on and advertising or marketing. I don't know. So I'm just gonna I I think it I just make the informed decision, flip a coin, okay, we're gonna go this way. Let's try it. You might try it and find it was right, or you might find that it wasn't and you should have gone with this way, but now you know. And and then in the next one, you can go this way. You know, it's like I think I think that's the thing is like you only get that more information that you need uh by taking action, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Unfortunately, and unfortunately, yeah. But I know that really sucks.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

That's the deal.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

I know, but I I often felt that's such an irony, like we live now in a world that that it's so much easier to to obtain information compared to you know, in our college centers, no YouTube. I had to tell my students no, like they asked me how like how do you study a score without listening to it? I said there wasn't a there wasn't YouTube. I wasn't able to listen to a lot of recordings like now, or like I I wasn't Google able to Google a lot of things, but then now we have so much information, sometimes it makes it it even harder to to just do it.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

I agree because we wanted like like I I think part of it too is that we think we have to have the best of everything. Like if you're gonna buy an ice maker, you're gonna read a bunch of reviews on Amazon for like five models. You're gonna go to Reddit and see what people have the best ones. You might watch a YouTuber that you like and see if there are any like tech reviews, and it's like you just need some ice. Like, like the top ten will get you, you'll be there, you'll have ice. Maybe it's not the best crystals or whatever, but it's like you don't have to have the best version, and I think that's part of the trap. And also another part is like uh I think school culture. It's like I taught a college course maybe like four or five years ago, and like people want to know, and this is not their fault, I'm not faulting them. This is about like the school system, is like what exactly is gonna be on my test before the test, like you know, all of the thing, and it's like and you want that in life, and that's not how life works. It's like it's like life doesn't give you all of the all of the information and give you the chance to study it and prepare for the test. It's like no, you're at the crossroads now, and you can either make a decision or or stay where you're at, you know, and and and then afterwards you get the answers. And I I think it's a combination of those things.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Yeah, yeah, that's such a great way to to sum it up. But thank you so much, Marcus, for your time and to speak with me. It's so nice just to see your face again.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

You too.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

It's been such a long time, but I'm still happy to see you and best wishes to the cult to the cultures, and I really I really want to see them here in Atlanta or somewhere.

unknown 47:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Hoping.